Curse

Gaile Gray · Apr 21, 2007, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Some players have been concerned about the loot scaling aspect of this week's update. They wonder whether the fact that drops are scaled according to party size will substantially affect their gameplay experience and whether it will impact upon their ability to acquire wealth in the game. We asked the design team for some insight into the design of and the intent behind loot scaling, and found out a lot of interesting reasons for its implementation, including how the changes that have been a point of concern are readily addressed within the very system itself.

The bottom line is that ArenaNet's goal is to make it easier for normal players to make money while redirecting the efforts of the expert farmers to a way to continue to reap rich rewards without having a harmful effect on the overall game economy. The loot has not been scaled across the board. Instead, the loot scaling is selective, and it preserves a means for the high-end farmer to make money.

But let's hear it from the design team itself, with this latest Dev Update:

Why would ArenaNet make changes that impact solo farming?

ArenaNet understands that people enjoy playing Guild Wars in many different ways, and our goal is to make each of those ways fun and rewarding. Solo farming sometimes becomes a controversial issue because it can damage the game for other people. In those cases, ArenaNet tries to keep the game fun for everyone while still providing fun and rewarding play for solo farmers.

A major theme of our most recent update is that the game should be friendlier and more rewarding for casual players, including casual solo farmers, and that the most advanced farmers should differentiate themselves from the crowd not through the amount of gold and common loot that they farm directly from monsters, but instead through the amount of gold that they can get from selling rare items to other players (directly or through traders).

That's a very important distinction. Advanced farmers are always going to earn more money than their more casual counterparts. There's nothing wrong with that. When farmers earn their money by finding valuable items and selling them to other players, they're making the game more enjoyable for everyone. They're facilitating trade, and the gold they acquire from doing so is gold that was already in the game. It's only when solo farming introduces a huge influx of new gold into the economy that it becomes a problem.

Because of the way that Guild Wars loot system worked, solo farming traditionally generated at least eight times as much new gold per participant as playing in a party did. And because solo farmers were motivated to farm only certain specific groups of easily exploitable monsters, they could often generate not just eight times as much, but 10, 20, or 30 times as much loot per hour as everyone else. Even more problematic was that the activity that they were performing was easy for professional gold farmers to automate, so if a single solo farmer could generate 20 times as much loot as the average player, then a network of ten computers running bots could generate 200 times as much loot. This huge influx of new gold caused inflation and made it harder for casual players to afford the items they wanted. In order to contain this problem, ArenaNet periodically added code to prevent monsters from being exploited, for example by adding complexity to the monster AI. But these types of changes made the game less fun for other players.

With the introduction of Hard Mode, we took a look a fresh look at normal mode to see how we could make the game friendlier for normal players. One thing we really wanted to do was to remove some of the advanced AI from normal mode -- things like monsters scattering from AoE, refusing to gather around individual characters, and fleeing or kiting players -- that we had originally introduced to contain botting. But in removing them, we needed to be sure that we weren't reintroducing exploits that would allow professional farmers to destroy the game's economy.

The answer to these problems was to somewhat scale loot according to party size, to bring the direct gold rewards from solo farming more into line with the rewards from other ways of playing the game. But we still wanted solo farmers to have an edge, since solo farming can be a fun way to play and a major reason why people engage in solo farming is to make more money. So we kept the direct gold rewards somewhat better for solo farmer than for people in parties, and then we added new loot which is very valuable to other players and which is exempt from loot scaling, so that solo farmers can farm this loot more effectively than other players and earn money by selling or trading it. Thus, our goal is that solo farmers can still earn as much money as they did before, but they'll have to earn it in different ways. Instead of looking for things to sell to merchants, solo farmers should now be looking for things to sell to traders or other players.

How does loot scaling work?

Without loot scaling, solo farmers received every loot drop, whereas people who played in a party received only a fraction of loot drops. Thus, solo farmers received up to eight times as much loot for killing the same group of monsters. With loot scaling in place, solo farmers still get more loot than people who play in parties, but the gap is less severe than it was before. It is impossible to quantify precisely how much less because it depends on the type of loot farmed and involves some randomness, but here are some rough guidelines:

People who play in normal size parties, including parties of heroes and henchman, will see no difference at all from loot scaling. At the same time, they will notice that normal mode is now much easier to farm, and that the introduction of Hard Mode provides a place they can play where the loot is better than ever before. Thus, people who play the game primarily in parties will simply make more money than they previously did.

People who periodically enjoy farming solo (with no heroes or henchmen) but are casual about it are also likely to see an improvement. They'll find that solo farming is much easier than it was before, because monsters don't have the anti-farming AI that they used to have, and because the game no longer prevents players from repeatedly farming the same monsters over and over. Many types of builds that didn't work in the past, or that haven't been effective since the earliest days of Guild Wars, can now be used for solo farming. Thus, casual farmers will find the game much easier to farm than it was before, and that they can earn more money than before even with loot scaling in place.

People who were advanced solo farmers and who were earning vastly more money through solo farming than through playing the game normally will see the full effect of loot scaling. They will earn less gold and common loot from solo farming than they did in the past. The loot scaling for gold and common loot is not linear with the number of players in the party, and it includes an element of randomness, so while the difference is not easy to quantify, it is by no means a factor of eight. Advanced solo farmers may now earn about twice as much gold and common loot from farming solo as they would if they farmed in a party. While gold and common loot are thus reduced for these players by loot scaling, certain other types of loot are completely unaffected. For example, Skill Tomes are completely unaffected by loot scaling, so they still drop eight times as frequently for solo farmers than they do for people who play in parties. Thus, advanced solo farmers will find that certain types of farming are still extremely productive for them, but they may have to change what and where they farm if they want to earn as much money as they did before.

If ArenaNet makes it harder for players to farm, doesn't that drive players to purchase gold for cash from the professional farmers?

ArenaNet's goal is to make it easier for normal players to make money, so that they can buy the things they need without having to purchase gold for cash, and then to redirect the farming activities of the most advanced players so that the way they make money is by selling things to other players rather than by introducing a flood of new gold into the economy.

Here's how we've made it easier for normal players to make money: we removed the advanced AI behaviors from normal mode that slowed down the rate at which people could kill monsters there, we removed artificial barriers to casual farming such as certain farming builds not working or the game penalizing repeated farming of the same groups, we provided somewhat more gold and triple the number of uncommons and rares in Hard Mode, and we introduced entirely new types of loot.

Here's how we've protected the economy from a flood of new gold: advanced farmers and professionals who choose to farm for new gold (as opposed to things they can sell to other players) will only make perhaps two or three times as much gold per hour as normal players, whereas in the past they made at least eight times as much, and by finding specific exploits they sometimes made 10, 20, or 30 times as much gold per hour as normal players.

Here's how we've provided a new way for advanced players to make as much money as they did before: by introducing new items which will have a high demand from other players and thus high trade value, and then by making those items completely unaffected by loot scaling, so that solo farmers still have very effective ways to make a lot of money, but so that they make their money without hurting the game's economy.

Will ArenaNet make additional changes to the loot scaling system?

We constantly monitor the game to ensure that people are able to make good rewards for playing. Originally the list of items that were exempt from loot scaling was limited to newly introduced Hard Mode items. However, after reviewing player feedback and analyzing play logs from the past 12 hours, we've decided to make a broader range of items exempt. We want players who enjoy solo farming to have a wide variety of things that they can enjoy farming. Thus, with today's build, all of the following types of items will now be exempt from loot scaling:

Skill Tomes
Scrolls
Dye
Rare materials
All rare (gold colored) items
All unique (green) items
Special event items

We hope this information is helpful and welcome your questions and comments.

lunksunkunk · Apr 21, 2007, 02:10 AM // 02:10

LMAO. I love it, "We constantly monitor the game to ensure that people are able to make good rewards for playing".

Kakumei · Apr 21, 2007, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Skill Tomes
Scrolls
Dye
Rare materials
All rare (gold colored) items
All unique (green) items
Special event items

Ectos are safe guys. Does that mean we'll see fewer complaints?

Wait, wait. I just noticed the "rare items" entry--so what the hell ISN'T exempt?

jon0592 · Apr 21, 2007, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Thanks, this slightly helps me...I'll see where this goes...

unienaule · Apr 21, 2007, 02:14 AM // 02:14

So, what does loot scaling affect then?

fripple · Apr 21, 2007, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Unless there's an additional build coming that puts this scaling in place, there's a staggering amount of bull in this dev commentary.

Now, how about some dev comments on more critical issues, like the fact that they've completely screwed up hero and hench a.i., or a justification for the ridiculous one-sided buffs to all monsters?

Kakumei · Apr 21, 2007, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by fripple

a justification for the ridiculous one-sided buffs to all monsters?

Uh. Hard mode? Sounds like pretty good justification to me.

sgtclarity · Apr 21, 2007, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Tonight at 11:
Contradictions, OR ARE THEY?

Stay tuned!

The Ernada · Apr 21, 2007, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Sadly, despite the clear concise post outlining the plan for wealth distribution and stabilizing the economy, all we'll see are responses along the lines of "OMG Gaile/ANET you suxxors!"

The items that are exempt from the loot scaling are a nice touch, especially ectos. Less gnashing of teeth now?

Lotrfish · Apr 21, 2007, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Greens and ectos unaffected. Yay! That was all I was worried about. Thank you for getting rid of my fears, Gaile.

Navaros · Apr 21, 2007, 02:19 AM // 02:19

If Ectos and Shards are now exempt again then the problem is solved. Hoping I'm understanding it right that they are.

fripple · Apr 21, 2007, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

Uh. Hard mode? Sounds like pretty good justification to me.

Uh, no? Considering the endlessly repeated advice of virtually the entire player base has been 'don't make this another doa with cheap monster gimmicks', I think it's not uncalled for to expect some damn explanation for why the devs, who make such a big deal about listening to the players, clearly DID NOT LISTEN to what everyone was saying for MONTHS. It's completely unacceptable that they would pull a stunt like this and try to pass it off as some advanced programming feat when anyone with a brain can see that it is not.

The Ernada · Apr 21, 2007, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Ok I just noticed gold items not affected by the loot scaling so I also ask what exacty IS affected?

I know the goal was to limit gold currency influx but if people can just sell the gold items and ectos, doesnt that defeat the purpose?

Coridan · Apr 21, 2007, 02:21 AM // 02:21

maybe i am confused but i thought it said

Quote:

For example, Skill Tomes are completely unaffected by loot scaling, so they still drop eight times as frequently for solo farmers than they do for people who play in parties.

if u put ectos or dye or whatever inplace of the Tomes it still only drops 1 out of 8.....which means you still won't get it if it wasn't supposed to drop for you.... Maybe i just need some clarifcation or something cuz to me ....when i soloed....i am a very casual soloer btw....i always got any dye/rare what have you...so are they saying that that hasn't changed??? or are they saying that you only have 1 in 8 chance of getting it?

elfmoogle · Apr 21, 2007, 02:23 AM // 02:23

That clarifies things a bit, but one thing I'd like to know is how does this work for people who don't have access to hard mode but do some more advanced farming in normal mode? People who have had the game for a while, but haven't finished, and aren't going to rush to beat one of the campaigns just to reap these "benefits" that have suddenly come up.

When I solo'd the trolls in Talus Chute in normal mode, I killed about 10 trolls and got 1 drop. Normally I'd get something from each troll, even if it was just a troll tusk. And wandering around doing quests and missions in Nightfall, I got gold, sporadically, but I was carrying my henchies and heroes with me. The only non-monetary drops I got were salvageables. I'm not really seeing the better drops here...

//RogueNine · Apr 21, 2007, 02:24 AM // 02:24

haha now that they EXPLAINED it its actually clever (with what they are changing today) gold farm bots are gonna merch everything including rares and stuff, where as real people will hold onto them.

Still, if this had of been explained before the update, or in the update I think we could have been spared a 50+ page thread.

VanDamselx · Apr 21, 2007, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Thank...god...

Thom Bangalter · Apr 21, 2007, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Ok. So I want to know one last thing:

how does any of this actually do anything when you effectively grandfathered in trillions and trillions worth of gold and made it impossible for anyone new to compete with that wealth?

antialias02 · Apr 21, 2007, 02:25 AM // 02:25

There was a new build that just came out - I'm guessing it makes the exemptions Gaile mentions.

So the farmers still get 8x ecto than if they were in a team. 8x gold items. 8x green items. 8x gold, even.

Sounds like the only items that DO scale are 2x white and purple items, and non-rare salvage materials.

More Outrage · Apr 21, 2007, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Hmm, haven`t got time to do an underworld smite run (trying to get fow armour and seems the only way to get it unless I keep pugging for the next 4 years) so I`ll have to take that last part as read and find out tomorrow. If true it means I will have less rubbish to sell to merchants and the same number of ectos as before, if not more in the long run - due to the AI reversal speeding up farming runs.
Looks good, Thanks for putting the fun back, was wondering what to play next, I can sleep easier now. Would have liked to tell the kids but their already in bed and still a bit peeved to say the least.

XX goodnight all..zzzzzz